InsideTech

MagiAwen, I understand your problem. I have an IT degree and I'm facing the same problem. I have over 1 year of experience, but I was laid off. I've been searching for months now for an IT position but have not landed a job. I often think about getting some type of certificate, but want to be employed before I invest anymore money into this field. It seems that all the interview I did, I just didn't have enough experience or knowledge about the position. I visited website of people in the same situation you are in but with experience, degrees and certifications, and it seems they are getting frustrated as well; so I'm looking forward to the response from the experts. I would like to know what is really going in the market today, because I see posting were company will except experience over degrees and certification and some only degrees and certification, but it’s been my experience that these company are looking for reason not to hire someone instead of reason to hire someone. Plus, what happen to training, does that exist anymore?

developer1970 said:

Are you getting interviews magi?

I may have talked about this in another thread, but we put out an add for a new programmer position a few months ago and I couldn't believe how bad the resumes were that came in. If you have experiance and you are not getting calls then try getting some resume advice. Don't assume you allready know everythign there is to know about a good resume. When I was looking I changed my resume many times. I actually had two resume's a long and a short version. Because I found some employers dont care about the one page rule as long as the content you add is quality material.

Check your standards as well. Maybe your looking for a position thats out of reach for now. Aim for somethign a bit lower on the scale even if it doesnt pay want you think you deserve. Do it for the experiance and to get to know people.

I worked 4 temporary assignments while I was in school. When I graduated I found a programming job in a month. It wasn't in web development which is what I wanted but I went with what opportunity there was because its more experiance.

Your lack of a degree might frustrate some people. I worked hard for my degree and seeing people without one in a position I have trained for is aggravating. You really want to know how they got hired, and you with a degree cant even get a foot in the door.

What kind of work are you wanting to do?

Hon, I applied for an entry level tech support and didn't get called. However, I am understanding the power of, "Overqualified, you wouldn't be happy here."

I also understand companies need to make quotas. I've had two companies say...as soon as you have X or Y certificate we would hire you...because we need one more X or Y in the company for partnership purposes. I completely understand that...I was held several partnerships with corps. in the past years. And yeah that does frustrate prospective employers, because I'm qualified for the job...but quotas mean that they can't hire me. I actually had a guy call me yesterday who I thought was going to cry because I didn't have a cert. So yeah....better get a few certs lol.

I changed my searches to not include companies that were tech support or vendors of any sort, which seems to have helped.

I realized a few days ago it was simple things like that. It's not that there is anything wrong with me and I am not applying for jobs that are out of my reach necessarily, just ones in which the paper is a necessary part of status within that company.

Most of what I got from my job search so far has not been interviews, it's been comments like the above. And I am glad I got those comments instead of dead air because it and what I have read here and there online has gotten me to where I am now.

I applied for 8 positions this week...so far I have three interviews next week. I don't know that my issue lies in the fact that I don't yet have papers, nor in what is in my CV...I believe I was simply applying to places that can't hire someone like me.

I have no doubt that people work hard for their degrees...I was working hard on mine before life situations forced me out. And I am sure it is frustrating...possibly moreso for a person with a degree to see people without one getting hired.

I do have something to say about that though. One of my employees had just gotten out of school...had a four year degree and also three IT certs. No one would hire him because he had no experience. He came to work with me so he could get experience and a work recommendation. Great guy.

Something I found rather surprising...with his 8 years of education and an AS in computer repair, troubleshooting and support... he literally could not troubleshoot a computer. I ended up training him on the boot sequences and the logical aspects of troubleshooting. This is not his fault...this I see as a problem in the system.

He also had a certificate for Unix administration, so I sent him on a job in which the client had an issue with their server. Nothing in his education prepared him for what he encountered there either. However, what he encountered he probably never would have encountered in a perfect lab training exercise either.

Again, not really his fault. In any case...I understand why companies that do not necessarily need to make certificate and degree quotas do not hire people fresh out of the gates. Which is unfortunate...but...makes sense.

This is no reason not to hire them of course, but they can end up taking extra company resources getting them up to spec. Not all of them need that...but unfortunately a great deal do...and that is the school and the trainers and the instructors that get that screwed up....for the life of me I never did understand why .... the people who have no real world application of what they are teaching teach at all....but I guess that's another situation we have here. Again, not all teachers lack read world experience...but I find that in the cases where they don't...they are doing a disservice to the student...my opinions totally.

What kind of work am I wanting to do? lol Ideally I would get to sit around and get paid for nothing but I don't think that's going to work. ;)

I have experience in a lot of areas....but I make a good general network/workstation support admin.

I will be interviewing next week for some moderately sized companies. Their job descriptions are exactly what I am looking for...for now...and the pay is probably not what anyone with a degree would do the job for...but I would be happy with it.

Ah.. that brings me to another issue.... saving the company from the person with the degree. And I also know that this is not something that everyone does...but I have been called in to several companies over the years because they have had to fire their qualified person with the degree...due to wasting company resources or worse...totally messing up their stuff.

When you pick just any person who has just any degree for the sake that they have a degree and they are not matched to the work you need done...anything can happen....and usually does.

MagiAwen said:

"Ah.. that brings me to another issue…. saving the company from the person with the degree. And I also know that this is not something that everyone does…but I have been called in to several companies over the years because they have had to fire their qualified person with the degree…due to wasting company resources or worse…totally messing up their stuff.

When you pick just any person who has just any degree for the sake that they have a degree and they are not matched to the work you need done…anything can happen….and usually does."

Yeah, unfortunately, that DOES happen quite often. I have an ART degree, for Pete's sake, and I have worked as the Global Desktop Administrator for my company for almost five years now. My voracious curiosity being what it is, I've been tearing apart computers for over twenty years (and successfully reassembling them for 10 :) ), but if I didn't work for this exact company, in these exact circumstances, my credentials couldn't get me a job as IT helper monkey, let alone an Admin position.

I've never seen myself as a "real" IT person because of my lack of pedigree and papers (which also keeps me out of Westminster, I suppose), and I thank God every day that I have the position I do...but I also think that God (or the deity of your choice) helps the gal who helps herself. In IT, if you can get in front of an actual, breathing person with hiring power, and demonstrate your skill set, you'll always be a better candidate than the pedigreed doofus who may have their sheepskin, but doesn't know a DNS server from an iguana.

(This doesn't apply in the type of office where politics and "proof of competence" are major factors and they tend to hire people with a degree - any degree - rather than the most qualified candidate).

On the bright side, my partner and I have started up a small business of our own doing graphic design and writing children's books, so there may be an Admin position available in the near future! :)

The most important thing is to never give up and believe in yourself....and since you not only started a successful business, but have managed to keep it alive for almost a decade, I'm confident you've got the gumption to convince some pencil-pusher that you're just the person they've been looking for! Good luck!

I really think, and this is just my opinion, but the best is to have it all! A degree, certs, and lots of experience! But we all know this takes money, patience and allot of time that most of us just don't have. So if you were lucky enough to get a sweet job right out of college, thats great! If not, I guess you just have do these things one at a time and hope you can get decent work while you are working on the other things. I totally understand about people calling all hours of the day and night for help with their computers and it does get old! What makes me really angry are the ones that work with my husband in the military. They think just because they work with him he should fix all their computers for free! And if he says no he is too busy they ask if I can do it for them! I tell them that I won't do it for free, and they get mad! Crazy, huh?

Magi if your getting interviews I think your doing fine you'll get a position eventually with 9 year under your belt. Its just a competitive market. I think there are more people that want to do PC repair and network administration than programming and database maintainence.

MagiAwen said:

Alright. Here is the situation..I ended up starting my own small IT services and consulting business 9 years ago. It does the job. However, it is not my ideal and as great as running a small business is, I would rather trade it in for something a bit more challenging and a lot more secure.

So what is the problem? My problem is that I have nine years of self taught experience and no degrees and/or certifications. I know, the easy answer is to get them.

Which is not an issue. However, in order to do so ideally I would like to work at least part time for a larger company.

Apparently I'm not even "qualified" for an entry level IT position, even with the experience.

I need some ideas and tips on how to get a job on experience alone without pieces of paper...so I have an income while I get my pieces of paper.

I have never been so frustrated with this industry since the day I started. :(

And to answer the supposed question of why not just continue in my business as is....I am going to be moving overseas in three years, where I MUST be papered. Where I operate my business is in a smaller rural community which meets my financial needs, however, the area is suffering due to layoffs and business is declining. Time to move on.

I've tried to go to school and operate my business at the same time and this has failed each time. Due to taking on more work because I feel guilty if I don't. At least with an employer or steady project based employment, I won't have the compelling urge to take just about any job anyone needs.

I, like MagiAwen, am happy to see all the responses to her current situation. I see the the frustration that I have been dealing with is shared in one manner or the other across the board. For those who are interested, here is my story. I'm one of the many who thought that an education would be the key to getting a job and starting a career. I have a B.S.I.T. degree, but I jokingly call it my BS degree. And Magi is right that school don't prepare you for the real world. In fact, I believe it could never prepare you for the situations you will face in the real-world, but it can provide you the ability or increase your chance to work thru any situation in the said discipline. All my life, I have been good at figuring out resolutions to most situations in life and job. I have demonstrated experience in repairing or improving process with the companies I worked for in the past. I'm new to IT, and my first interview in IT, I had a difficult time explaining my technical abilities to the hiring supervisor, but somehow he believed that I was capable of doing the job. It was with a small company so there was little to no training provided, so I had to figure out each duty on my own. I beg to be trained by the hiring supervisor, (who had no degrees or certs, but know about IT) but never received much help. To make a long story short, that supervisor was fired because his position required more than IT skills, and he was not capable of making the transition. The new IT Director advised me I had to take over his responsibilities. Neither I nor the IT Director knew how he did his job and the supervisor did not have much documentation. I had to learn the supervisor job and responsibilities quickly. I'm happy to say that not only did I learned his position, but I improved all the processes that he was responsible for within two months. So much, did I improve the scripts and code, that one DBA joke with me an said that I may have worked myself out of a job. And no two months after, I was laid off. I can't say that was the reason, but it did seem coincidental. The problem is that now if I'm fortunate enough to get an interview with less than 2 yrs of experience, I still struggle to answer all the detail questions I face on interviews. I thought my reference from my former job and my demonstrated ability to learn quickly would be enough to easily get another position. That has not happen so-far. What I'm learning from the comments on this forum literally scares me. I have faced this situation before; I can't get the job because I don't have experience and I can't get experience because no one will give me a job. I face this in the mortgage processing industry, until one supervisor, for the same company that 3 different supervisor did not hire me, saw that I had the capacity to do the job and gave me a chance. He would later brag to the other supervisor that they were not smart to pass me up, since I became the top Processor/Underwriter in the department. This may sound like sore grapes, because maybe it is, but hiring managers in the industry reads books, go to seminars that advise them about the importance of pieces of paper, or experience and how this would save the company lots of money. Although these are good guidelines, people being as people are, most apply these guidelines as law, and miss out on good candidates for the position. I see the same type of attitude is some of the response to Magi's email. The problem is the no-one wants to train, and because of that, good people are being past over. Those with experience would not want to stay in a position making a lot less then their peers, so either the company increase pay or know that in a good market they will loss that person. Job are being out-source, but I believe that those who get these jobs require some training. Some have talked about the dummying down of education or hire managers, I believe the market is do to the dummying down of people. No matter how much you know or think you know you will require some type of training when you start a new position with a different company, and all are trying to avoid paying for it.

MagiAwen said:

Alright. Here is the situation..I ended up starting my own small IT services and consulting business 9 years ago. It does the job. However, it is not my ideal and as great as running a small business is, I would rather trade it in for something a bit more challenging and a lot more secure.

So what is the problem? My problem is that I have nine years of self taught experience and no degrees and/or certifications. I know, the easy answer is to get them.

Which is not an issue. However, in order to do so ideally I would like to work at least part time for a larger company.

Apparently I'm not even "qualified" for an entry level IT position, even with the experience.

I need some ideas and tips on how to get a job on experience alone without pieces of paper...so I have an income while I get my pieces of paper.

I have never been so frustrated with this industry since the day I started. :(

And to answer the supposed question of why not just continue in my business as is....I am going to be moving overseas in three years, where I MUST be papered. Where I operate my business is in a smaller rural community which meets my financial needs, however, the area is suffering due to layoffs and business is declining. Time to move on.

I've tried to go to school and operate my business at the same time and this has failed each time. Due to taking on more work because I feel guilty if I don't. At least with an employer or steady project based employment, I won't have the compelling urge to take just about any job anyone needs.

What part of the country are you in?

spthomp0518, thanks. I had a conversation today with my man, Pin...and in that we both observed a few things.

First about my situation... I cannot get hired for a job outside of my field...even for say, a supplemental waitress job...because, "Woah...you won't be happy here, look at your experience." And so far...though I have had two interviews this week and one more on Friday...I don't really have much to go on...managers have been pretty poker-faced so far...so I just sit here and assume that I'm going to hear, "Sorry...but if you had a degree or cert, it would be easier to hire you..." I certainly can understand that. But it's very difficult to not have a job if I'm going to go back to school full time to get a paper to get me a job.

Another thing I have faced but in the in the foodservice industry, was managers not hiring me because they were afraid I would be after their job...and that is something also to consider...whether a person has a degree or experience or both...that the hiring manager might go, "Oh crap...this person could work me out of a job...better get someone who will do the job okay but isn't as much of a threat." Which is unfortunate because not all of us are out to take over other people's jobs... we just want one of our own.

Pin has had this happen a few times as well... he had had too much education ...not overqualified but people were sketchy about him coming in and making them all look bad lol.

I am really thinking, at this point... it's all a toss up and merely a matter of odds/statistics....at least right now I need to believe that. If I keep up with things and really believe that by the time someone sees my CV and says..hey...here is a good candidate...that those are the people I would really like to work for. The ones that consider experience a plus, know that I can always get a certification after I have the money to...and aren't paranoid and suspicious that I might get someone fired. I don't know that I would want to work for someone who is that paranoid anyway.

Who knows... maybe every place I have send in to will end up offering me a job lol. It hasn't been long enough to tell yet :) .... hehe...yeah yeah... let me live in my fantasyland for a moment. :P

Serenity:

It's surprising? Hmm....that answer apparently depends on who you talk to ;) Where do I live? I live in northern Wisconsin a few hours from Canada 0_o

I've considered that something may be amiss with my CV... that is why I have revamped and redone it over and over. I have never had to write one before actually....well really this is the first time in my life I have ever applied to any job... most I just walked in, talked to the manager...handed them my references and then started work a few days later....but that was when I was in the restaurant industry....large difference right there.

I appreciate your offer (and as soon as this site lets me actually click on my emails to read them...I'll send you a private note) but I think I will give it another week before I start sending it to people for revamp advice.

I now have some weird challenge between me and my CV.... lol...stubborness mainly. :)

Bluto:
Indeed....lots of things can change with one telephone call :)

I am up for anything. Though the closer the better, I can be bought. Really.

LOL as if I am here merely for the weather. ;)

Actually...I stepped things up this week....started applying in the Cities and etc yesterday. Though you may be surprised at how many places there are in Wisconsin to apply at....cept not all of them I qualify for. Example...Cray and SGI (about 30 min. from me) is hiring all the time now...but ... ah... I am so not qualified :) Not that they don't have my CV...lol...just in case.

MPLS/STP is much closer to me than Milwaukee...that would be much cooler...not as in temperature...but in ...well..coolness. LMAO (hehe don't mind me...I'm having a very interesting day today)

Shoot me a hunter! :P

Check yer inbox. Meh... driving isn't the problem. Snow isn't the problem. The cold and having to step out into it is the problem. Frigid winds from Canada and what not. Though on the otherhand... someone would have to give me a lot of money to move to a place that was warm year round. Funny, I know. Thankfully, I will not be faced with that tough decision right now.

Yes it seems the same for me except in the graphic design/web area.
Although I am getting my degree, I have been using photoshop/flash/illustrator etc for like 4-5 years self taught. But often don't have the right stuff to show the interviewer what they want and they don't believe I can do it.

And to tell you the truth I'm only getting the degree because interviewers pretty much only go by that. I tell you right now the assignments in my classes are overly easy as in takes me about 10 minutes to finish for projects that are given 1-2 weeks of time.

From what I have learned after being on the internet for a few years, Us freelancers are way more skilled in the area than people with degrees because we don't just learn what is required we actually learn the whole application/system inside and out....

You can always make an online resume type thing listing your skills. And a good way imo to show that you know the stuff is make tutorials on it? I'm not exactly sure what IT? is? Networking? or what but I'm sure you can write a tutorial on it, and even put pictures With you in it so they no you didn't just copy paste it from somewhere haha, it's not just the designers that can make portfolios :)

Thats why I was saying write tutorials, you could write tutorials on how to install them, design, implement etc. And if the person reviewing it is smart they would think you know the stuff really well if it's explained well.

My dad always says "If you can't explain how to do it to someone else, then you really don't understand it." So I'm assuming if you write tutorials on how to install/implement etc that could even be highly detailed the person reviewing should assume you know what you are doing. And if not then I don't think that you would like that job anyways :P

No problem :D
A good idea once you finish your site is affiliate with people, and if you can afford it advertise on google/yahoo, I know I don't click ads haha but for some reason a lot of people do :P