InsideTech

I have been following this topic and found that whoever started it had other hidden agenda than finding out or understanding Islam, as a religion and are all here jumping to conclusions. What I am seeing here is a narrow view/understanding of the religion and the world.

Great views from all corners but I am still not sure if most of those who are engaged in this topic have ever been outside of US. How come it (US) is being taken as world...

mimmerso, I saw that you took some extracts from numerous sources, could you read a little bit of history of the crusades here: shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1159094813/">http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1159094813/

Again, I and anyone else here should expect this to be kept clean and informative. It started as question to know and Taoufiq tried to provide some answers but it looks like the questionner's intentions were not necessarily to know and understand but to start a useless attack/fight

peace

Well, for one - i am american -- but besides having lived in 6 different states -

i also lived 5 yrs in Germany and now am in Italy for 14 yrs ...  i also lived 3months in India and 1 in Japan ... and have also visited many european countries and i visited Egypt as well, twice ...

i've gone from Catholic to 'cult' to Christian ...

 i have 2 very dear Muslim friends - (who are 'devout practicing 'moderate') and who i greatly respect for their sincerity

in their faith and way of living by Islam's many very wholesome principles. 

I don't intend to be disrespectful to anyone - nor to start an attack/fight.

At the same time, i think that many are nieve about the real teachings of Islam - and about how much potential danger there is.

most of the quotes i cited are directly from the Koran ... 

i believe that i responded to SCASTLE's 1st question about Muslims not being bound by any agreement with a non believer ---

in explaining The principle of Al Takeyya  ---- yes, it certainly does seem acceptable for Muslims to lie in non Muslim countries - to non Muslims.

So what are we to 'believe'.   Are we to even take this 'moderate' claim at it's face value ?  sometimes i wonder.

To briefly respond to my view of what would happen if Obama gets elected:

I think the Muslims would be delighted. 

For one thing many of his policies would further contribute to the demise of morals and 'Christian' or 'traditional' values

--  redefining the 'family' -- by allowing gay marriages and adoptions etc ...

allowing abortions at any stage ... all directly and indirectly contributing to an overall acceptence of promiscuity --

yes, all the rot in our culture that Islam denounces.    

So, when our culture gets even sicker, as they say -- they have just the cure.  Islam.         

Other than that - Obama is a big liar.   He has contradicted himself so many times about so many things.  I have lots of links - most of which the liberal press glosses over and calls 'smears'  ... there is too much there to ignore!      but this is not an election forum ....

as far as optimisticman's     statement that "Islam never force anyone to convert to islam." 

i think the quotes i wrote in the last comment greatly put that in doubt ... and there are many more such statements in the Koran.

Historically as well - Islam has been spread thru war ... and as it is also stated in the Koran -- the conquered non believers

can either pay a tax, convert ... and in some instances, die. 

There are some other verses in the Koran that also deals with apostasy (conversion away from Islam)

  from Islam and clearly tells us that leaving Islam is a punishable crime.

Thus renouncing Islam is definitely not one's personal choice as CAIR and many modern secular

education-groomed Muslims would tell us to believe. This punishment ranges from death [Q4:89]

to "greatest punishment" [Q 88:21-24] or "painful torments" [Q 9:73-74] on earth, which is to be continued in afterlife.

 

Indeed, Prophet Muhammad himself had dealt with those who left Islam in his life-time with death.

According to Prophet's biographer ibn Ishaq, two such men were from Mecca who had accepted Islam

and joined Muhammad in Medina. They later returned to Mecca and reverted to paganism.

After his triumphant arrival in Mecca in 630, the Prophet ordered their execution for renouncing Islam.

There is no report that the Prophet had spared anyone who had left Islam in his life-time.

Even being a moderate Muslim is 'persecutable'          A Muslim journalist  of one of the biggest newspapers in Italy (Magdi Alam) was a 'moderate Muslim' who openly voiced his views of being moderate.  He had a 'following' of many  moderate muslims.

He had to go around with a body guard - here in Italy - because of the death threats he recieved from fellow Muslims.

I suppose he tired of trying to be a moderate Muslim, and recently he became Catholic.  He still needs a body guard.                            

ffyari -- makes many statements about Christianity - which are inaccurate and misguided.  But since that is not the topic

of this forum -  i will only briefly address a few points:

about the belief of Jesus being God:  it is treated many times in both the old and new testaments:

 

It is written, "'I am the Alpha and Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to

come, the Almighty.'" (This is spoken by Jesus. Cf. Rev1:8)

John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.

Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy;

and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Col. 2:9 - "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

as far as looking up the Crusade links - they didn't work ? 

i don't intend to say that the Church and Christians never made a mistake or that they never had 'unholy'

and 'unChristian' leaders. 

but - making references to ffyari statement: 'Muslims could not accept King's discipline of non-violence

not because they believe in violence but because they refuse to humiliate themselves by submitting to evil. '

i would say that the Crusades, at least in part - were a response the evil aggression of the jihad of expansionism  - (The fundamental purpose of jihad is to expand the Dar al-Islam --

the Abode of Islam -- into the Dar al-Harb -- the Abode of War. In other words,

jihad is expansionistic, seeking to conquer non-Muslims and place them under Muslim rule. )        after centuries of tolerance.   

Unlike jihad, the purpose of the Crusades was neither

to expand the Christian world nor to expand Christianity through forced conversions.

Instead, the Crusades were a direct and belated response to centuries of Muslim conquests of Christian lands.

 The immediate event that sparked the First Crusade was the Turkish conquest of all of Asia Minor in the 1070s through 1090s.

Scott,

You're concerns are quite vailid and quite relevant in this day and age. I think you simply asked a couple of questions that most people either didn't know how to formulate, or were afraid of asking for fear of starting a conflict.

I see no problem with opening up the discussion to the most basic fundamental beliefs. For the most part, this thread has been far more peaceful and mature than I would have ever expected.

Discussions like this one are why I created this group in the first place. There simply seemed to be a need for it at the time, and the interest and participation from all is far more than I could have hoped for, here and under the other topics.

mimmerso,

Thank you for your insights into this topic. Your posts have been very informative.

With all this talk about how the muslim religion has the potential to be violent, I do have to make a minor point with my muddled remembrance of the british/indian war-

If I recall my history lessons correctly, most british soldiers believed most native indians to be savage barbarians in need of converting to british culture and religion.  Britain then was predominantly christian, and very concerned with "conquring" the world.  They tried to convert india, china, japan, and even america to christianity, sometimes through violence-

May I also remind those christians who have posted that christianity as a religion is "only peaceful", about the near destruction of native american tribes such as the iriquoi, the black foot, the cherokee, and so forth?  Did you neglect to recall the mandatory "christian/catholic-based schools" that their children were forced to attend?  Did you forget the ruler slapping, paddling ways of schools back then, that would harm children for speaking in their native tongues or worshiping their earth spirits?  (My reference is first hand knowledge from a tribal elder named dilaila who lives on the yakima reservation who went through such schools.  I have heard her stories, and I understand her anger towards people like me who do not accept christianity as their religion.  She had that religion BEATEN into her, and this behavior was condoned by the church at the time.  )  Did you forget the witch trials, where women were persecuted for being "different"?  Examples in any history text covering the witch trials all over europe and america include midwives, women who learned to swim, women who "nagged" their husbands publicly, and women who believed in ANYTHING other than god.  The witch trials also included personal feuds between nieghbors who would accuse each other of witchcraft to get back at them for some social slight or disagreement.  Most witch trials consisted of drowning or some other torturous device that nearly always made the accused out to be a witch, if they even survived the trial.  I ask- is that peaceful?  Is torture peaceful?  The same question can be put regarding the inquisition. 

So I guess my point is this: before mud-slinging that other religions other than the one you practice are violent while the religion you follow is peaceful, take a good long look at history.   

I think, out of all the religions and philosophies I've studied, the only ones I can truely say are most peaceful would be zen, buddhism or krishna (well, as it is now- we've all heard rumors of kidnapping and other things that blacken krishna's past).  and even then there's a certain degree of violence. 

Violence is simply a human condition.  Compassion is also a human condition.  In no way do I mean any disrespect with my post, to anyone specifically.  I'm merely pointing out what a "religion" as a whole has done in the hands of those who bend the religion to their own narrow beliefs. 

Would you believe some individual would give a PIECE about religion ?? Well this guys don't, they ev en sing about nihilism, fascinating philosophy.

Phreadd says ...

I realize this is a rather volatile issue, but please keep the tempers down and the posts civil.

Remember, this community is not limited to Americans, but rather is a world wide community.

You may strongly disagree with someone's position, but try to understand it and learn from it rather than attack it. Understanding our differences is the first step in overcomming them.

For the record, I personally espouse neither Christianity nor Islam, nor any other faith for that matter. I do however respect other people's faith, extremists excluded, and seek a better understanding of ALL of them.

Agreed- I try to include examples from other countries.  If I do get a bit carried away, I blame personal experiences of religious discrimination clouding my thoughts briefly...  I try to distance myself from those experiences, but sometimes they surface anyway. 

I have many friends of different faiths, who are moderate in their beliefs, and I appreciate their different view points.  Among my friends the faiths include Catholic, New Age Pagan, Druid, Wicca (both solitary and specific covens), Christianity, Muslim, Mormon, Jahovas Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, Shinto, & Buddhism.   I also smile secretly because alot of their view points are the same...even if they site different sources for their view points.   

checkel says ...

Chrisdafrenchie says ...

checkel says ...

Chrisdafrenchie says ...

Sure, very interesting...

 <insert video>

Exploited fan, eh?  I'm also reminded of a song by bush with that video....

 

Which one ? Bush, the Band or Kate Bush..

Bush the band.  "..there's no sex in your violence..." 

Nihilism eh?  oddly, I knew a few people into that....LOL  I haven't thought about them in years...  Good grief I've known some interesting people...

Ha, ha... Really cool. BTW Also Speed kills of Bush is really cool too.

For question 2.-

here's a link describing a little of how the middle eastern muslims view USA.  http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/361.php?lb=brme&pnt=361&nid=&id

From what I can find, there really is no opinion in the middle east from middle eastern news publications specifically polling on their opinion of Obahma.  I welcome others to review some of the publications for further insight.  The link below has links to various news publications in the middle east, allowing you to narrow down what publications you wish to look at by country.   I find it refreshing to see our election really is a small insignificant thing over there.  There are more pressing issues over there than who the usa is going to elect for a president and, it seems from the press over there,  that nobody there really cares if obahma is muslim or not.  The biggest note regarding the election is critisizing BBC for sending so many reporters to cover our election, followed shortly by "how will this effect the occupation?" 

newspapers.com/east.html">http://www.world-newspapers.com/east.html

I also find it interesting to see that the world at large does not really know what to believe regarding who was behind the attack on sept 11th, and that they only think about it in passing on the whole. 

thanks for the positive feedback.  i do appreciate it ... and sorry about posting some of the same things twice ! it was very late.

__

ffyari: Perhaps the most important difference in the Muslim belief that how he conducts himself in

daily life is the most important part of his religion, that he creates his own heaven or hell

here on earth, while Christians look to reward or punishment in the next life.

__

In response to this - i will say -  ..in my experience it is just not true - nor in what i see in others.

And you speak of 'fundamentalists/evangalists' as if they believe that as long as they believe- they can go out and have fun and sin all they want.

It isn't that way at all.   A true Christian lives a life of joy -- not of 'following God's will' for fear of eternal punishment ...

but following it out of complete love of God - and trying to love others as ourselves ... and in believing that, even though we might make

lots of mistakes/sins -- God, as any father would, still loves us and will always forgive us. It in no way signifies that 'assurance of salvation' -

is a licence to live sinful lives.  And it is definetely not what i see in the (true)Christians i know. 

I know that  Catholics have more of this -sin/punishment/reward worry -- but even there -- they are always assured, that if they believe in Christ,  they will go to Purgertory ..to be cleansed of their sins, before going to heaven.  

__

ffyari: "When it comes to righteousness-through-good-deeds, a Muslim can run rings around a Christian."

This is a terrible admission for a Christian to make. If Muslims are better people, living better lives, why should they convert to Christianity?

__

in response to this:   i say that it is really unfortunate that so many so called 'christians' do make a spectacle of themselves and give all

Christians a 'bad  name'.   if you use the term Christian, i believe it has to be qualified by 'practicing'.  A practicing/true Christian

makes every effort to both study  the Bible(God's word) -- AND to practice it in their lives and in all situations.   Christians and Catholics

probably give more to help the poor and destitute of the world in terms of personal time as 'missionaries' and in terms of aid - than any other religion.  i say probably because i have not done any research on the statistics.  Are there any worldwide largescale help coming from Islam ? 

Perhaps there is some, but i am not aware of it.   Perhaps this is 'neither here nor there' -as they say.   But i do agree, sadly -i must admit,

that in general Muslims are more inclined to be 'practicing' Muslims, than Christians -in day to day life.  Although there are exceptions, and

i hope not to offend -- but at the moment, in the milan, italy area -there is a huge increase in the Arab population - and it seems that the

Moroccans are often heard about for 'small crimes' ... but i feel certain they would be the 'non practicing Muslims' and the minority.

As far as Muslims ' being better people , living better lives,  why should they convert to Christianity?  '  --   

hummm ... that is a loaded question ?  that does invite an answer.   but briefly.  

for one thing - from what is written in the Koran - there is not much freedom of choice.  It seems that ,either you obey - or you are

severely punished --- in THIS life.   Perhaps this is also WHY most Muslims behave 'better' ...they don't only have the somewhat (to some)

'nebulous' 'threat' - of being punished in an 'afterlife'. In most(or should i say many?) Arab countries - adulturors can still be

punished by stoning ... thieves - by having their hands cut off .... apostates (converts to other religions) - death ...

i'd say that is a pretty good deterent to engaging in these 'sins' .... and a pretty big reason for the 'masses' behaving well. 

i believe that all these 'punishments' are precisely described in the Koran ... and it is what the Shaira law is based on ...

(By the way - i don't know if it is well publicized - but England very recently instated 'sharia law' - as parallel law -with english law.

There are probably more extremist muslims in England than anywhere -at least in the 'non muslim' countries.  "Islamic extremists have created "no-go" areas across Britain where it is too dangerous for non-Muslims to enter."  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1574694/Bishop-warns-of-no-go-zones-for-non-Muslims.html

(shouldn't we be getting a bit allarmed at these things ? !!)

as a Muslim in Britian wrote:  I believe that the issue of terrorism can be easily demystified if Muslims and non-Muslims

start openly to discuss the ideas that fuel terrorism. (The Muslim community in Britain must slap itself awake from this

state of denial and realise there is no shame in admitting the extremism within our families, communities and worldwide co-religionists.) ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jul/01/comment.religion1 )

back to why to convert .... 

one muslim friend told me that if one thing is not correct in the Koran, the rest could be rejected.

to oversimplify:   the earth is not shaped like an egg ... and the Bible never mentioned the coming of Mohomet ... and the bible has not been changed and modified (as, i believe is claimed - to explain the absense of a reference to Mohomet) ... there are hundreds of original manuscripts available.  If Mohomat claimed there was another 'version' ... i'd like to see it and it's original manuscripts.

the truth of the Bible can be verified.   there are numerous manuscripts -- more than for any other ancient book.

and there are many other proofs based on geology, 'ancient' geography (as far as the biblical names of lands in different periouds), and history.

i could not begin to 'show' all the proofs -- but there are many good sources that can ...one i liked was the book 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict'

by Josh McDowell. 

Christianity gives us a guide for the way to live, it gives us the promise of 'salvation' ...and it gives us the freedom to choose --

between believing or not ... and to choose between good and 'evil'.   Nothing is stuffed down our throat ... and should not be stuffed down

anyone else's ...

__

checkel ...   if, historically, 'christians' have killed in the name of religion - and done other crimes --- it is not Christianity that is at fault --

if the Catholic church did some horrible things -- it was a grave error --and not based on the biblical teachings.  I do not try to throw mud at the Muslim faith ... i just quoted what is in the Koran ...

But at the same time - i don't think that Christians are called on to lay down and submit to 'darkness and evil' consuming the ability

for 'good' and freedom to flourish.  And for me - i think that losing freedom of choice .. as with Hitler, as with Communism, as with Sadam Hussein ...

and also as with life in most Arab countries, under strict Muslim rule -yes,  i believe this is an evil.  I don't care if they are all 'well behaved'

and obedient.   Taking away mankind's freedom IS an Evil.    I don't want to go and change all the Muslim countries that are under strict Islamic rule ... they can keep it, if they want ... but i don't want it coming to any  of the rest of the 'free' world -- either by war, terrorism or taking over internally . 

I choose Christianity because i believe it is the true faith - even if many so called Christians don't live by it. 

Given the chance, i don't hesitate to profess it - but i know it is not right and not possible - to 'give' another faith - or to force it on anyone.  

__

Chrisdafrenchie:  well i did like one of those photos ... giving Hussein a drink ... well, they did love us then, didn't they !  Alas, that moment

didn't last long ... and they turned to hating us again ... but i do believe the gov. wants us to stay ... but the anti.gov wants us to go ...

the problem with muslim nations is that 'they'(at least a part of them!) really don't want democracy ... they want to keep their shaira law.

checkel says ...

scastle says ...

 

Two questions because I a really curious:

 

1. I have read that there is a Muslim Law that states that a Muslim is not bound by any agreement with a non-believer. Is that true and if so what is it called?


2. If Middle Eastern countries view Obama as a Muslim (not saying he is), what would the repercussions be to diplomacy in that region.

Just going back to the original questions that started this whole thing-

I believe we've gotten a definite answer for question 1.- While we didn't get a specific name for that "law", we did learn that this can only happen under specific circumstances- from what I gather it works like the laws regarding signed contracts- contracts are binding unless made under duress or at threat to mental, physical or family harm.  If a Muslim finds themselves in a situation where they could be harmed for admitting their religion they are allowed to lie to save themselves, and not be held accountable for that one specific lie. 

Personally, I have to agree with this.  My own experiences of having things thrown at me on a near weekly basis and having a group of people chase after me to literally burn me at the stake for simply not attending one of the 17 local churches in a 10 mile radius (I did not share the faith of the local churches) would make me biased, and in favor of a law like this.  I never discussed religion with anyone in that town, so no one knew my faith except two tolerant "normal" people.  These things occured solely on the basis that I had not attended a church.  AND YES this happened in a little town in the lower 48 states, not alaska like most americans would first assume. 

As for 2.- I have only seen one mention of the opinions of middle eastern countries, and so far nothing to back up the theory he is thought of as muslim by those countries.  Personally, I would like to see some articles posted regarding this to review and discuss. 

 

I know that you link just about anything together if you work hard enough but, Why discuss politics on a technology site.  Not fore or against but I had to pose the question..  Why?

Regards,

Johnny

www.johnzpchut.com

www.collegetidbits.com

aunjar says ...

I know that you link just about anything together if you work hard enough but, Why discuss politics on a technology site.  Not fore or against but I had to pose the question..  Why?

Regards,

Johnny

www.johnzpchut.com

www.collegetidbits.com

 

Someone created a Group concerning politics, so I posted a question.  I figured that there are people on here from all over the world of different faiths and nationalities.  I could have posted the same question on other sites, but I wanted honest and diverse opinions.

Phreadd says ...

scastle says ...

Someone created a Group concerning politics, . . .

Actually, this group is not specificly about politics, but life in general.

I do believe though that you couldn't have picked a better place to post your questions. The overall diversity, intelligence and maturity of the people on this site make it more likely you'll get straight and honest answers without starting a flame war.

Agreed!  Well said, Phreadd. 

A Muslim is responsible. He obeys the law unless to do so would be evil. A Muslim will resist evil laws and every Muslim will approve of going to jail for defying racial discrimination. But he will obey other laws which have nothing to do with right and wrong because to break the law brings discredit on the person and on his Faith. A Muslim must work for his living if it is at all possible. If he is sick or disabled or there is no work available, there is no shame in accepting aid from others or from religious institutions or governments. But the demand for honor and dignity means a Muslim must earn his own living if possible. Even in the situation where he could make more from welfare or unemployment benefits than from working, the Muslim must work. A Muslim must support his children and his wife. This obligation is absolute. It is not removed by divorce or other separation. Muslims believe in self reliance. They must take care of themselves and not become a burden upon society if it is at all possible. Malcolm X was right on target as a Muslim when he said Black Americans should solve their own problems and lift themselves up from their oppessed condition, not just appeal to the government to right the wrongs which had been done to them.
Being responsible means both doing what is needed and not doing that which is wrong or harmful. If a Muslim has a problem like alcohol or drug use, he must face the problem and do whatever it takes to conquer it. Muslims support programs to combat these and other evils, there are Muslims in Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. A man who womanizes defiles himself, but think how much worse it is if he takes a venereal disease home to his wife. A person who destroys him or herself by getting AIDs through using drugs or having sex outside of marriage has brought great shame upon him or herself, but how much worse to give the disease to an unborn child. We live in a time of much depravity and temptation. A Muslim must hold himself above these things, he must oppose them actively, and above all, he must not contribute to the suffering or downfall of anyone else. In Islam, every person is his brother and sister's keeper, and every other person is his brother or sister.
Muslims are respectful and considerate of other religions. They hold the "religions of the book" in particular veneration. The religions of the book are the religions which worship the one true God and follow His word as revealed by His prophets. This means the Jewish, Sabaean [Sheban], Christian and Muslim religions. A Muslim should venerate a Jewish synagogue or a Christian church as a holy place devoted to the worship of the one God of all these religions. When Farrakhan called Judaism a "gutter religion", he defamed Islam along with Judaism.
So how does one tell a true Muslim? He (or she) is honorable, dignified, considerate, gracious, law-abiding, honest, modest, and clean. He does not use alcohol, cocaine, heroin or any other addictive drug. He educates himself as well as he possibly can. He respects other people, other religions and all learning. He is responsible for himself and his family.
If this sounds like a good Christian or Jew, it should do so, for Muhammed, Jesus and Moses were all holy prophets of the one true God, teaching the same truth from God.
Appendix: "The Five Pillars"
There are five obligations for all Muslims which frequently are referred to as the five pillars of Islam. These are specific things to do as religious practice, rather than general norms of conduct such as those with which this paper has dealt.
1. Saying the creed (Shahadah). Muslims say the creed several times every day, "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammed is the messenger [prophet] of Allah" (La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasul Allah). Shahadah means bearing witness, it is an affirmation of one's faith.
2. Daily prayer (Salah). A Muslim is supposed to say prayers [these are special prayers revealed through Muhammed, the equivalent of the Lord's Prayer in Christianity] at five specified times of each day. These times are at dawn, midday, midafternoon, sunset and nightfall. Muslims must cleanse themselves before saying these prayers and then they face towards Mecca to offer their prayers. They kneel down and touch their heads to the ground at various times during the prayers as a sign of their submission to God. On Friday (Juma) men should go to a mosque to say their prayers with other Muslims.
3. Giving of Alms (Zakah). Muslims are expected to give money as gifts (alms) to the poor of the community.
4. Fasting (Sawm). Muslims observe the month of Ramadan by fasting during daylight hours. This is in remembrance of the gift of God's revelation to Muhammed (the Qur'an).
5. Pilgrimage (Hajj). Each Muslim should go to Mecca at least once in his life if at all possible. The pilgrimage is performed during a special month and there are a number of practices expected during the pilgrimage, in which the pilgrim venerates the sacred shrines of Islam.

indeed- although i know most of this from a girl I was friends with in high school, Nadia.  She gave a unique perspective on it, as a teenage girl half-raised in america, struggling with what her family and religious beliefs expected of her, and how it affected being a teenage girl in america.  One of the difficulties she had in particular dealt with dating.  She was pressured by her family to only date other good muslim boys, and follow her beliefs regarding interaction with boys.  In a suberb of seattle, it was hard for her to find other muslim boys, and certainly very difficult to find one that attended the same school.  It was also difficult when she would meet perfectly nice respectable boys in school that she liked, and be unable to date them because they had to be of the same faith, according to her parents. 

I lost touch with her over the years, but I can't help feeling for the girl, and wondering how it went for her.  She grew up in american culture for the most part, where women have more freedom of choice than what her parents are used to in their culture.  I suspect she had something of a partial ally in her mother, because she was allowed to wear the same clothing as everyone in school.   I can only hope she managed to find a balance and peace in her heart.