InsideTech

Hi Dear Mr.  Scott

I am Taoufik from Morocco. I am muslim and Monotheist as you may be Christian or jewish and Monotheist I think ..

I will be so glad to answer your two questions and keep you well informed about some islamic values concerning our relationhip with the "Men and Women Of The Book" as we call all our co-Monotheists "Christians and Jews" in our Sacred book taht is "The Quran". 

First things first, let me inform you that we are all believing and worshipping the same God : "The father, The Lord or Allah" are synonymous in our monotheists religions.

I have never heard, as a muslim, that "a Muslim Law states that a Muslim is not bound by any agreement with a non-believer".

In contrast Our Book invites all monotheists to gather and fellow the straight path as recommended by our Lord since he creates Adam and Eve who are our First Ancestors in Fact .

Although the divine religions contain different rules in the light of the climate and conditions in which they were revealed, they essentially offer the same model of belief and morality. They have all offered the same fundamental truths regarding such matters as the existence, oneness and attributes of God, how He should be served, the kind of behaviour He finds pleasing, how one should live and behave, the concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, how people should order their lives in this world, and how one can obtain eternal life .

As people who believe in God and follow His revelations, let us rally to a common formula - "faith". Let's love God, Who is our Creator and Lord, and follow His commands. And let us pray God to lead us to an even straighter path. When Muslims, Christians and Jews rally to a common formula this way; when they understand that they are friends not enemies, when they see that the real enemy is atheism and paganism, then the world will become a very different place. The fighting that has raged for ages, enmities, fears - and terrorist attacks - will come to an end, and a new civilization based on love, respect and peace will be established upon this "common formula".

 

You can find more information to answer your curiousity in these websites :

http://www.peopleofthebook.net/ .. 

http://www.islamdenouncesantisemitism.com/

http://www.harunyahya.com/

Concerning your question about what would be the repercussions to diplomacy in Middle East region If Middle Eastern countries view Obama as a Muslim, I think that Obama is not muslim (Like you do) and if he will be elected in november as President of USA, I am sure he will act better than Bush and his governoment did when they were masters. Let's say that in general, The Democratic Party in USA has well resolved many international affairs' matters when He governedin USA. So it will be the same in Middle East. I am sure it would have positive repercussions for diplomacy in that region. I am OPTIMISTIC about that too .. dear Mr. Scott.

 Optimistically yours :)

Taoufik

Awesome topic (and a very sensitive one I might add)!

I think it's good to see such open communication. I think there are a lot of questions people have that could be answered here. There is a lot of confusion the world over on these questions.

Sorry if I'm stepping on toes, I'm merely trying to add what I know to the topic....

To Scott, concerning the question of "where does israel fit.......?"-

as a studied person on different religions and the origins of people, I think I can add this bit:   In the early stages of most christian & muslim beliefs, Israel started as a settlement with several beliefs held by the inhabitants.  You also have to consider back in the day, most peoples of the area were tribal, and there were several waring lords who did battle over the hundreds of years it took to get where we are today.  One of the ways these lords would motivate their people to war was through religious belief.  Sad, that they would stoop this low to attempt to conquer, but it's what was accepted in those times.  It's how extremists are created; they want the world to bow to their image of what belief should be, and in addition gain power over other people with it. 

anyway, that's just my 2 cents.

I appreciate all the comments, but let’s try to keep it civil.  I am very opinionated and I attempt to be diplomatic in my questions and responses.

My concern with Israel comes from the number of countries that seem to be determined to wipe it off the face of the earth.  Let me state a few opinions:

1. I do not group all Muslims in with Hezbollah, PLO or Al-Qaeda. 


2. I believe that any “Holy Book” can be misinterpreted.  

Israel seems to be the common enemy of other nations in the Middle East. 

I have read portions of the Qur’an and I see verses that are filled with peace, but also a push for violence against non-believers.  I do not claim to be an expert on interpreting any book, much less this one.  I do not see it as accepting of others.  There are a number of verses in the Bible that make me uncomfortable as well. 

optimisticman says ...

 Let's judge him by his behaviour not by his personal faith.

Taoufik

Phreadd says ...

Regardless of which faith is being discussed, more blood has been spilled in the name of religion than for any other reason throughout history.

Having faith in something, generally speaking, is a good thing. So is tolerance of other's faith (or lack of it). Radical extremism is what creates the problems.

 

Sorry, not all of that applied here, but I needed to vent.

I do not profess to know a great deal about Islam, but I do know what my eyes and ears tell me.  I have read stories and have seen news footage of the attacks on the Marine Barracks in Lebanon, the attack on the USS Cole, the attack on The World Trade Center, the attacks in London, and the attacks in Spain.

I wonder what kind of person would think that carrying out such an attack on civilian peoples is a productive way to obtain attention to a cause?  In each of those attacks no cause other than Radical Islam was cited.  Not Radical Judaism.  Not Radical Christianity.

It has been stated that Islam will dominate the world.  That makes me wonder, if Islam is the so called 'religion of peace', then why all the destruction and suffering?  Why all the bombing and death?  Why all the threats of domination? 

All this in the name of Allah?  In the name of God?  If God and Allah are the same entity, then that entity's prophets have been preaching at cross purposes for 1500 years!  Someone has misunderstood something very basic here! 

Every Christian I know holds peace close to his heart.  Every Jew I know prays for the end of violence.  The Muslims I know won't discuss this issue at all.  I wonder why?

The West wants peace and prosperity for all.  The IslamoFacists want to return to the 8th Century and Sharia law.  Doesn't look like peace is in our future does it?

CHRISTIANITY OR ISLAM

Mikail Juma Tariq

Islam is a continuation of Christianity as Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism. These religions, known as the Abrahamic religions because they all trace their origin back to the prophet Abraham, are very close to each other. They all worship the same one God. There is sometimes confusion about this because Muslims usually call God by the name Allah. This is a contraction of Al Ilah, The God. Ilah, the Arabic for God, is a very close cognate of the Hebrew Eloh (Elohim, with the im suffix also seen in Cherubim, Sephardim, etc.). The main prophets of Islam are Muhammed, Jesus (Isa), Moses (Musa) and Abraham (Ibrahim). Muslims call Christians and Jews "people of the Book", meaning that they follow the teachings of God's prophets as set down in the Bible. On most things, Islam and Christianity agree. Islam and Judaism are even closer as to morality and the rules for daily living. So what separates them and who is right?

The obvious difference is that Christians accept Jesus after the prophets of Judaism and Muslims follow Muhammed after Jesus. But the serious differences between Christians on the one hand and Jews and Muslims on the other come not from Jesus but from Paul, who took the Christians out of the Jewish tradition in many ways. The Palestinian Jewish Christians who followed the brothers of Jesus, first James and then Jude (Judas), never accepted Paul and his teachings, but formed their own church called the Ebionite Church. The Ebionites all became Muslims later, accepting Muhammed as the successor of Jesus.

Another crucial difference between Christians and Muslims is the Christian belief that Jesus was God. Of course, many Christians do not believe this, either, such as Ebionites, Arians, Nestorians, Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, Universalists, most Friends, most Methodists and most members of the United Church. Many individual Christians have taken this position as well, such as Martin Luther King, Jr., Albert Schweitzer and Bishop Pike. What does the Bible say? To the person who addressed him as "Good Teacher", Jesus replied "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Luke 18:19) Again, to Mary Magdalene at the tomb, Jesus said "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). Even Paul agreed that Jesus was not God,

for he wrote "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (I Timothy 2:5). So the Muslim belief that Jesus was the prophet of God, but not God, agrees with Jesus and the Bible.

What is the nature of God? Of course, this is beyond human comprehension, but part of the answer is He is spirit and He is love. "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24) "He who does not know love does not know God; for God is love." (I John 4:8) From this it follows that while Jesus was a man of God, he was not God.

There are other important differences in Muslim and Christian beliefs and practices. A Muslim is taught to be proud, to conduct himself with dignity and honor, whereas the Christian views pride as a sin and is taught to be meek. The present emphasis in psychology on self-esteem and assertiveness has always been a part of Muslim custom. While both the Christan and the Muslim see greed as sinful, the Muslim is urged to go into commerce and accumulate wealth while the Christian is urged to shun riches and depend on God for sustenance. The Christian is urged not to defend himself but to turn the other cheek when he is struck. The Muslim is commanded to defend himself, his family and particularly his faith. This difference in views explains why Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr., were not able to work together against discrimination. Muslims could not accept King's discipline of non-violence not because they believe in violence but because they refuse to humiliate themselves by submitting to evil.

Perhaps the most important difference is the Muslim belief that how he conducts himself in daily life is the most important part of his religion, that he creates his own heaven or hell here on earth, while Christians look to reward or punishment in the next life. The extreme form of this is found in Evangelical or Fundamentalist Protestant Churches, which follow Paul's teaching that people are saved through their belief in Jesus as their personal savior and not by how they live. Of course, most Christians, including Orthodox, Catholics and Mainline Protestants, agree with Muslims and do not believe this. They follow the teaching of James, "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." (James 1:22) "What does it profit, my brethern, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" (James 2:14) "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James 2:17)

In a direct answer to Paul's letter to the Romans, James showed that Paul had incorrectly interpreted the story of Abraham and Isaac, and goes so far as to refer to Paul as "you foolish fellow." (James 2:20) "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24) "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." "You believe God is one,; you do well. Even the demons believe - and shudder." (James 2:19) The belief of Muslims and most Christians is given in the first letter of John: "And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep his commandments. He who says 'I know Him' but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (I John 2:3)

The question of which religion is best must be addressed on several levels. First, since Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same one God, all of them are good, and no one should deride any of them. While Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the most complete and reliable source of God's revelation, they acknowledge that the same message was given to Jesus, Moses and other prophets before Muhammed. While a comparison can be made on the content of the revelations in the different religions or on their theological positions, and the criticism can be based on the methods of different fields such as history, science, linguistics, ethics, philosophy or theology, there is a simpler approach which may have more validity for our lives. In the philosophies of Pragmatism (William James) or Utilitarianism (John Stuart Mills), that is best which works best. In this vein, the test of the quality of a religion lies in the quality of the lives of its adherents. It is much easier to compare results than it is to ascertain the validity of different revelations.

Test for yourself. Go to a church and a masjid (mosque), find several couples in their late thirties or early forties, and find out what has happened to their teenaged children. We believe you consistently will find that many more of those raised as Muslims will have stayed in school, stayed off of drugs and stayed out of jail. Find women of this age and see how many still have sober, productive, supportive husbands. Find men of this age and see who is healthy, employed and out of trouble, and who is addicted to alcohol or cocaine and wastes all his money. It is our experience that Muslim men and their families are faring much better than others, particularly in the poorer neighborhoods of American cities where drugs and crime are so destructive.

There is an article in Christianity Today (January 10, 1994) about Islam in America which is very informative. Titled "Churches Wary of Inner-city Islamic Inroads" under a heading of "African Americans" and subtitled "More Blacks see the Muslim message as an appealing Alternative to Christianity," the article is cited on the front cover as "News: Winning back Black Muslims" and in the table of contents as "Urban Churches: How ministries are reclaiming Black Muslims." While the intent of the article is to tell about Christian efforts to convert Muslims to Christianity, it provides some very interesting insights into the differences. "When it comes to righteousness-through-good-deeds, a Muslim can run rings around a Christian." This is a terrible admission for a Christian to make. If Muslims are better people, living better lives, why should they convert to Christianity? The article quotes a Christian woman, "As a Black woman, I can't tell you what it means to me to see all those young Black men dressed in suits, disciplined, committed to a cause, and totally respectful of me as a woman."

While the article deals mainly with the small, break-away group led by Louis Farrakhan, it does mention the main group of Muslim Americans, led by Wallace (Warith) Deen Mohammed, the son and heir of Elijah Mohammed. Concentrating on the Ridgewood section of Columbia, South Carolina, "They have come in here and established a daycare center, a bakery and a supermarket, ... And then they marched down the street and told all the drug pushers they didn't belong in that neighborhood anymore. The drug pushers moved out." This quote is from a minister whose church "moved into Ridgewood to counter the mosque's efforts."

We believe that the answer to societal problems like drug use, alcoholism, crime, illegitimate children, teenage pregnancy, school dropouts, unemployment, urban blight, lack of education and illiteracy is to be found in Islam. At the present rate of growth, Muslims are predicted to be a majority of urban African Americans by 2010. This growth is largely based on the recognition that Islam is the main force combatting these evils in our cities. Even if you do not accept Islam for yourself, we hope you will appreciate the contribution that Islam is making to improving social conditions. The pride and devotion of Muslims is making a difference in many places and improving the lives of many.

Phread,

No one else want to chime in?

I was really hoping for more of a response from Muslims.

I realize this is a rather volatile issue, but please keep the tempers down and the posts civil.

Remember, this community is not limited to Americans, but rather is a world wide community.

You may strongly disagree with someone's position, but try to understand it and learn from it rather than attack it. Understanding our differences is the first step in overcomming them.

For the record, I personally espouse neither Christianity nor Islam, nor any other faith for that matter. I do however respect other people's faith, extremists excluded, and seek a better understanding of ALL of them.

Hello all members who have  first open the debate especially Mr Scott and Mr Mike who strenghten it by his positive and thaughtful comments to keep this space peaceful and friendly.

I invite all of you to watch this 2 documentray movieS about the personality and whole life of our Blessed prophet Muhammed and another movie about Our Beloved Messenger of Christians JESUS May Peace be Upon Him As Well

My aim is to present more info about Muhammed (May Peace Be Upon Him) who was sent as a Mercy to the whole mankind and to show up that JESUS (May Peace Be Upon Him) will be the Saver  of the whole Mankind when He will return to earth  in the future.

Please watch this movie about Jesus (May Peace Be Upon Him) under this URL :       http://en.harunyahya.tv/videoDetail/Product/3818/JESUS_(AS)_WILL_RETURN

And watch this movie about Mohammed (May Peace Be Upon Him) under this URL : http://en.harunyahya.tv/videoDetail/Product/9002/THE_PROPHET_MUHAMMAD_(SAAS)

Taoufik.

Phreadd says ...

Thank you for the links Taoufik. It's not often that non-Muslims get to see the Islamic view of Christianity in a peaceful venue. Then again, it's not often that Christians want to.

Generally speaking, most people who follow a "religion" are so thoroughly convinced that theirs is the correct and only way that they are unwilling to even listen to another point of view. This closed minded attitude is probably a major factor in every war that has ever been fought in the name of religion.

****************

Yeah you are right dear Mike :  "The closed minded attitude" is the fuel to fire that UNFORTENATLY burns all of us .. in contrast "The open minded attitude" is the intake that lighten our minds and hearts with hope, peace, understanding and acceptance of the other's point of view ..

Thanks fore sharing.

            Taoufik.

Chrisdafrenchie says ...

I'm 100% behind blasphemy, and I won't feel bad taking a p1ss on religion.

 

Chris,

I consider myself to be an atheist also. But there's no reason to deliberately insult and provoke those that do follow a faith.

Keep the peace!

Some quotes from the Koran:

Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out ... if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191

Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76

They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. 4:89

Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65

3:32 "Allah loveth not the disbelievers."

O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 9:73

As i have understood - the 1st part of the Koran is 'peaceful' ... in Mohammet's later life, as his religion was not as widely accepted as he liked, he took to wars to spread 'Islam' ...  He himself participated in some +- 60 wars.   So the last part is the 'call to arms' - to do anything (** see below)  to spread Islam worldwide.   The Integralists claim to be the true Muslims - as they more directly follow the Profet's wishes.    As even the moderate Muslims are clear about - Islam IS the way ... and sooner or later they expect in one way or another, we will have to accept this.

Allah and the God of Christianity is not the same God.   The God of the Old Testament --- was more 'violent' ...  what He always punished was man's sin.   Often he punished the Jews, for their unbelief.   The New Testament - brings the message of redemption, thru belief in Jesus ....not just a man, but believed by Christians to be God ... part of God's plan ... profesied in the old Testament ... to send His Son to die for our sins ---thus, our redemption ... as we are all sinners ...  Christianity, truely lived, is striving to live and follow Christ ... all that is in the New Testament.

The Crusades:   (excerpt from :  http://www.ucgstp.org/bureau/wnp/wnp0069/thousandyear.htm)

Lessons from the Crusades

There are remarkable similarities between the time of the Crusades and now. During the 11th century, shortly after the end of the first millennium and the beginning of the second, there was a widespread belief in Europe that the end of the world was imminent. There was also a widespread peace movement, as there is now.

The Crusades followed centuries of Islamic encroachment on Europe and European interests. After Muhammad's death in A.D. 632, his followers rapidly conquered North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula. Exactly a century after the death of the prophet, they reached the gates of Paris, where they were defeated by the forces of Charles Martel, grandfather of Charlemagne, crowned Holy Roman emperor by the pope.

In the east, they kept eating away at the territory of the Byzantine Empire, the eastern half of the Roman Empire. Eventually, it became impossible for Christians to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem and other cities in the Holy Land.

With Islamic forces close to the Byzantine capital, Constantinople, the Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus appealed to the West for help. His appeal came only four decades after a major schism between East and West, separating the two branches of European Christianity. Pope Urban II likely saw an opportunity here to heal the breach and restore Christian unity by helping out in the Middle East. In 1095 at the Council of Clermont in southern France, the pope called for a Crusade to defend the Holy Land from Islam.

After a long period of being pushed around by the forces of Islam, it was the pope who rallied Europeans to fight back. Could the same happen again?

** Another intersting fact is this:  (excerpt from http://www.islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml )

The Arabic word, "Takeyya", means "to prevent," or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one's self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts. Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Surah 3: 28